It's true that you don't need to be religious to do good, but far more religious people do good than non-religious people. In most cases, those people do their good without any acknowledgement.

Sure. I've always been a person of faith and at least 50% of my friends have always been agnostic or atheist. I remember having a conversation about Jesus with them and I got them to admit when you remove all of the pretence of religion they really think Jesus was a cool dude who had a great message.

My best friend Shelli has got more good morals and values than most people of faith I know. She may not worship the word but there is no doubt she lives it.

I do not believe in an immortal soul, nor do i believe there is "life after death". I consider myself a moral and caring person. For over 30 years my wife and i give each other a Christmas present. We pick a specific individual, many times of a "giving tree", and try to see if we can make their holiday more joyful. there can be joy in helping, and not expect someone somewhere is "keeping score" for later reward or punishment. i believe on the whole, i have done more good then harm in my lifetime, not for any other reason then we have got to help each other if we are to have a civil society.

One of the wry product of religious belief. Is that according to teachings of the church i was raised in, it is "a serious sin" to walk away from the religion, so my wife pray for me. I have a sister i love dearly, she believes you can't get to heaven without accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, she too prays for me, and worries about my "soul". The irony of this dichotomy s if I am right, no one will know, if I am wrong, there are all those folks who can say "I told you so". Can you imagine opening your eyes and seeing a god with the head of a jackal telling me i have a serious of tests to take, and hopes i am conversant with the "book of the dead".

What do you think of all the documented stories of people who have died and come back and spoke of the white light and the peace and in some cases visions of loved ones past who appear to guide them?

Do you think it's a cerebral orgasm caused by the brain shutting down? Or could it be real?

I do believe a soul. Whether it is everlasting remains to be seen but I definitely do believe in the spirit soul.

*in a soul....

The white light is the brain shutting down. The feeling of peace, is not too different from animals. A mouse being played with by a cat releases endorphins that remove pain. A case for ID I guess.

Your self awareness is as much your soul as anything else. If you feel guilt as well as happiness then you have a conscious and are able to build ethics.

Ultimately I believe when you do good for others, you feel better about yourself. Call it what you may but we all know that feeling, want it feel it more, and in doing good we promote a stronger feeling of well being.

To me it is a soul.

Granted Cheeky, but can you show any indication that it survives the shutdown of all your brain functions? A dog runs into a burning building to save his master,why?

Because he's out of kibble?

You mean a burning desire?

I don't think religious people do more good than atheists. I think the religious organizations get more attention about the good their doing. I'd probably guess that the level of effort is the same on both sides.

I may say that whereas atheists are doing good will out of the generosity of their heart since they don't believe in punishment for doing the opposite or for a certain afterlife for doing good, some of the religious followers may be doing it to try and get to heaven. There may be different motives behind the deed. And I say this having had a grandmother who would give gifts to anyone and everyone (even the mailman) believing it would get her to heaven, and yet turn to me and say that she hates me because I'm just another grandchild she has to spend money on. She was only charitable because she thought it would get her to heaven when deep down she hated every second of having to be generous and was only generous to outside eyes (not family members) as if God could only see what she did outside the household.

I'm agnostic atheist. I participate in MS WALK, MS BIKE, and help organize our local breast cancer walk. I volunteer regularly at my local animal shelter, training the dogs so they can find homes more easily, and volunteering to talk and educate people when they come in looking for a pet at the shelter. I have a therapy dog that I take to visit elderly people in senior citizen homes and to visit sick children in the hospital. I knit scarves to donate to women's/children shelters. I donate to various charities such as the United Way and the Food Bank. I volunteer way more time an dmoney than most of my religious friends. That being said, I know people who think I am evil and a bad person who is going to hell because I'm atheist. I get offended when they tell me they will pray for my soul and for me to come to the truth.

Just because I don't believe in God and follow your faith, does not make me a bad person, someone with questionable judgment. I just do not see evidence of God and even if I did see evidence of an "architect" (thanks Grandpa - I like that term), I don't believe the religions of the world have it right or at least the only right view/interpretation.

It's great that you do so much, but overall atheists don't give. That doesn't make them bad people, but if we are going to "judge" the goodness of a person, and use giving as one of the criteria, then they aren't as good as most Christians.

i'm sorry, but i really don't think religion has anything to do with how much you give. how do you know that atheists don't give? i think that would be a hard thing to prove.

UnDave can you back up that claim with statistics that are from unbiased sources?

That is quite the condescending attitude you have that atheists aren't as good as most christians. The goodness of a person can be measured so many ways, being "christian" isn't a criteria of goodness - I know many christians who are not good people.

What I'd like to know is why there is war? Is war good? Most wars are fought because of religion. So, on the flip side of this question. I wonder if religious people are good people. I think not so much-based on my experiences. I don't think that religious views make you a good or bad person.

How about we look at the tax records of our politicians? Those who consider themselves Christian give a whole lot more than those who do not. Those that do not support higher taxes, so that money can get funneled through the government and given to people in need.

Sugar - What wars in the last 300 years have been fought in the name of a religion?

any of the israeli-palestinian conflicts?

So, now Jewish-Muslim wars make Christians bad?

you said "a religion"

and i'm not saying christians are bad. i'm saying that i really doubt that atheists don't give.

Agreed, Yoga. I'm somewhat confused by your logic UnDave. If religious people are going unacknowledged for the good that they do how do you know they're doing more?

It is not at all plausible that atheists and other non-religious folks are also going unacknowledged for the good that they do?

especially since they don't belong to a congregation or something. it's hard to track individual giving.

I didn't say they don't give. They don't give nearly as much.

Let's go back to the Isreal-Palestinian wars. Who is the aggressor? Who has vowed to wipe the other off the face of the earth? You may think I'm reaching, but I would say that only one of those two groups is using their religion as an excuse to go to war, and the other is defending their right to exist. So, I'll amend my comment about religions in general to say religions, except for Islam.

ok, thanks for the clarification. i agree with you there.

UnDave - I don't think you really want to look into tax records of politicians as representing overall society. Especially since the vast majority of politicians have an announced religous affiliation. Very few atheists get elected to public office simply because of the fact that they are atheists (generally, religious people just won't vote for an atheist), not to mention atheist only make up about 5% of the population. I would even estimate the majority of politicians identify themselves as christian versus another religion.

Also, politicians receive a lot of donation from religious special interest groups. I really don't think politicians are the way to judge if atheist are as "good" as christians.

Using your logic, I'd argue that most politician's are corrupt and since you want to use politicians to represent christians, then I'd have to conclude that most Christians are corrupt. (I don't believe that - that making a point.)

I don't think anyone can claim that christians do more good than atheists or vice-versa. I'm just trying to say that atheists can be good people and do good. A lack of belief in God does not equate evil and poor morals.

"A lack of belief in God does not equate evil and poor morals."

I agree. One can be just as good or bad as the other. Religion does not make the better man all the time.

I didn't say that atheists are evil, although some are, or that religious people aren't evil, because there are many who use religion for evil purposes. I also didn't say that atheists don't give. I did say that in general people of faith give more. If you don't want to believe that, that's completely up to you.

Of course atheists are good people too!

The question wasn't who does more, but whether or not atheists are GOOD people. Also, I don't think that Christians are bad people-both atheists and and Christians can be good or bad. I don't think that religion really decides that.

In my experience, the Christians I know, are underhanded and most of them are just plain mean. I don't think that they're good people. Therefore, I don't think that athesists are bad people...they're just people. Some of them are horrible people. Just like some Christians and religious people are horrible.

I don't think that the Catholic priests who molested children are good people.

One of the reasons Americans fought the Revolution was for religious freedom. 9/11 was partly because of Allah-religion. IRA in Ireland - Catholics vs. other Christians.

I disagree that atheists are the only people that do good out of the goodness of their hearts. While some religious people may do good because they want to go to heaven, a lot of religious people do good out of the goodness of their hearts as well.

All people have the capacity for good and bad within them. It's up to the individual to decide for themselves whether they want to be "good", "bad", or "neutral". IMO the only difference is a religion gives a person some guidelines on being good or bad. Not being an atheist I'm not sure where or what they look to for guidance. (I don't think that last sentence is coming out the way I intended. I definitely don't mean that in any negative way.)

Ha -skb - you were not being negative

I don't think we necessarily look to something for guidance on good or bad. I think deep down, with or without religion, most people inherently know what is good and bad. I follow my instinct or intuition if you will on what is good or bad.

I've said this about human sexuality and I think it applies here as well. Human religious or spiritual faith is a continuum. You have people who go to church all the time, some times, once in a while, never but still believe and then you have your agnostics and atheists.

As for (good), good is as good does what ever you are.

in many ways it is harder on non believers. For non believers the only forgiveness for a bad act lies in giving recompense when possible, and forgiveness from the injured. Other then that you are on your own pal. No priest, minister, rabbi, or Imam can relieve you of that guilt. Even then, it can lie heavy on your conscience.

I don't know if you've ever done a "bad act", but even if you are religious, it can still lie heavily on your conscience.

My tracker went crazy...so I got lost in the shuffle. Some really interesting comments here.

# 30......ditto

# 11......I want you to know that all the good you do is probably noticed. I'd like you to perhaps read comment # 11 again and consider viewing what was wrote in this manner. It seems that you viewed you grandmother's charity as painful because she didn't seem charitable to those who really counted--YOU.
Then you counted off many of the things you do to be charitable....which is marvelous and I applaud you for having so much energy and selflessness...but I cannot ignore a tiny voice inside me which says....on some level you are competing with that view your grandma stuck on you....insisting that you are far more than just another grandchild...much more than just charitable--but also well meaning...You are truly and sincerely charitable.
While her charitableness may not have given her a halo, she motivated you to outperform her. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. I just wondered if you ever considered this.
Bear in mind I am not being critical...it was an observation...and I have been known for being "out there" so I hope you don't take it as critical.

You are and will always be MORE than she ever was. I'd like to say, I hope you see this...and know it to be true.

CheekyRedHead, I only saw my grandmother two times a year (x-mas/easter). She really has no bearing/impact on decisions I make in my life, after I was old enough to make the decision on my own (age 14), I did not see her again. I just was citing her as an example of someone who paraded and let the whole world know how devout she was while not being generous in her heart but going through the motions - she cared about image to outsiders, thus her cards/gifts for outsiders while being mean and abusive to her family. I don't recall my parents ever speaking of her actually doing charitable work or donations - just giving gifts to people such as her pharmacist, mailman, etc - which really isn't charity. She thought because she gave a card with a little gift to the pharmacist for Easter, that made her a good person.

I had debated about mentioning my own charitable actions because I didn't want people to think I was bragging or saying I was better than church-goers. The only reason I mentioned them is because some people are convinced that atheists do not do good or not as much as religious folks and I strongly disagree. I'm not saying atheists do more good, just that we do as much good and that it's probably equal effort on both sides. Keep in mind that only 5% of the population is atheist, it would be impossible for 5% of the population to donate as much time and money as the other 95% of the population. But overall level of effort is comparable. There are people on both sides who are greatly involved and there are people on both sides who are not involved at all.

The reasons I do good for my various charities are for personal reasons and have nothing to do with competing with my grandmother: have friends and family with MS - it's personal for me. Breast cancer - my aunt ws going through chemo for it during my wedding and my childhood bestfriend's mother had a double mastectomy because of it - again, it's personal. All my work with animals at shelters is because I am disgusted with pet overpopulation/abuse and rather than continue to get all teary eyed when I see animals in shelters and read stories about the number of animals that have to get put down each year, I choose to be a part of the solution. I love training my dogs, hence why I chose to go the route of animal therapy, especially since it means they can go visit sick children in the hospital. A family friend's daughter spent 2 years at Hershey Medical's Childhood Cancer Floor fighting brain cancer and after visiting her there during that time and watching these children struggle - it left a lot of sadness in me and I can't forget their faces and how little they had to give them hope and yet they tried to remain upbeat even when they were so sick. Many of the kids I saw there did not make it. It left an impact on me and I want to help cheer children who are in the hospital. My friend just lost her daughter to seizures (a side effect of radiation/chemo) 11 years after beating the cancer. Again, an influence on why I want to continue to help sick children.

I feel that not enough people get involved in good causes and I don't want to be one of those people sitting on the sidelines, all words and no actions. I don't have a lot of money - but I do have time I can donate. My parents are amazingly selfish (my therapist says it's really quite impressive) and were mentally abusive to me and my brother. They have a lot of hate and most definitely did not participate in anything charitable - my mom often would reply "go get a job, I work hard for my money, it's my money". I distinctly remember my mother often saying things mean about people who were involved with their children or did charity. She often mocked people who did charity work as putting on a front, it's all just for show. Maybe my brother and I do so much charity because we grew up seeing how wrong our parents were in so many ways, (he's an atheist also by the way).

I just know that I have always wanted to do good, help the general welfare of people. When I was little, I would see commercials for sponsoring a child, donate to save the rainforest, "adopt" a tiger, and I'd ask for that to be my christmas present and my parents would never let me do it. Even my career as an engineer was motivated by my desire to help the environment and health of people. I think for some people, charity comes naturally - it's part of their personality, and I'm probably one of those people. I'm overly sensitive to things and it motivates my actions.

OMG - i am so sorry, I did not realize how long that post is. Very sorry about that - I'm such an engineer - I get wordy.

Sometimes we all get that talkative when we're stressing our strong opinion on something. I just break my long post into 2 post. Most people do. You're fine *Yoga*

It says a lot about the attention span of most folks, if they have problems reading anything other then brief comments.

That's so true *Grandpa*

I find that most people who misunderstand you online, are the ones who speed through your words. They don't read every sentence and comprehend them. Therefore, when they start with their longwinded assumptions they make NO sense.

Many people have misquoted me because they simply didn't pay attention to what I said. Then when I correct them they either nicely say "oh now I see what you meant" or they get upset because they've been corrected.

I say, don't comment on someone else's comment if you haven't actually read it.

Yoga - I thought engineers were known for their wordlessness? Haven't you ever heard of an outgoing engineer? He stares at your shoes instead of his own.

Well I'm not your typical engineer. I'm also a scientist, so that probably has something to do with my need for detail. Some of the engineers I work with make me look positively glib!

I'm very outgoing and personable and *gasp* fashionable if I do say so myself. I think I'll tell that joke though to some of my coworkers and see if they laugh!

No worries Yoga on the length.

I'm sorry your parents were so selfish. It sounds though like you have turned out quite well in spite of them.

The Bible actually addresses people like your grandmother. I'm not sure the actual scripture but it talks that you should do your good works in secret because God will know about it and will reward you. If you do them in public because you want people to know that's all the reward you get.

I think a lot of us who do charity work do it for causes that are either personal or interest us. I don't think there is anything wrong with that at all. I help plan a 5k run each year for ovarian cancer because I know the woman the run is named for and am good friends with her husband's family.

Who ever said that being an Athiest or a Religious person had anything to do with how nice of a guy that person is, or how many good deeds they do?

How do those things always get correlated?

Is it that people want to be saved by their good works because "they earned it"- or because people want to believe that they are saved because they are "good" and others who are not saved are "bad"?

I believe it's a bit of both.

Look, that's all human pride. No one can be saved because he did good works in his life, why because being saved is not about doing good works- it's about having faith in God.
And no one who is saved was saved because he was good, he was saved because he had faith and God took mercy on him.

Lot's of 'good' people (people who do many good things) are unsaved and lot's of 'bad' people(people who do many bad things) are saved, and vice versa.

How could a person who does many bad things be saved? Because salvation is based on his faith not his behavior. Is his bad behavior pleasing to God of course not, will there be consequences for it on earth yes there will be.
And what about the person who does so many good things and is not saved? He may be the nicest man alive, but he cannot be saved by his works and deeds.

We always confuse these things as a society.

It has to do with our pride.

A lot of it is believers. We think we are saved because we are so good, as if God saw us and said yes that one is without sin give me that one. Of course Athiests can be good people. Just like believers can be sh*tty people towards others.

We want to cast blame, we want to look down on others, we want to make it about US but it's NOT about us- it's about God, it's about Jesus. Not about us, we can't save ourselves. Religion and deeds cannot be equal because one does not equal the other. True faith inspires one to want to do good deeds, no doubt about it, but sin nature is still there and the saved will still sin, hopefully less and less as they grow in Christ but that's a different post. My point is, unsaved people want to do good deeds, too.

Please don't confuse the two!

(not directed at you Pink, just towards all of us as a people.)

LOL Yoga....I think you are the first person to out-do me in comment length! Hey... I appreciate a well-thought comment...length it irrelevant....but I get chastised and teased about it all the time.

I am glad you didn't take my comment personally. Sometimes what comes across in a comment largely has to do with the person reading it as much as the person who wrote it.

Charity in many cultures is expected and in others almost unheard of. I am not sure anyone can "quantify" charity completely, and on some level is seems counter-productive to do so. What one person considers charitable another may feel is routine. Whenever someone/anyone gives from their heart it is precious.

atheists are people,people do good and bad, religion involves faith regardless of what religion it is. so i believe that atheists can be good people it's just that they only have faith in themselves.

No gamestomper, I have faith in the goodness of man in general. I think the selfish instinct/gene has been weeded out over generations of natural selection, that made it more likely that people who worked together increased their own chances of survival.

I don't have a problem with atheists. They can do just as much good as a religious person. Atheists have hearts too and have done plenty of good gestures in this world.

I hope you all check out the Intelligence Squared debate about the Catholic church with Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry vs. two Catholics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvZz_pxZ2lw

It actually speaks volumes about goodness and religion, ie, I think they are pretty nicely divorced from one another. Religious people can do good and atheists can do good, and religion has absolutely nothing to do with anything good being done.

In fact, so much evil has been done in the name of religion that I'm pretty surprised people even believe goodness and religion go together.

"In fact, so much evil has been done in the name of religion that I'm pretty surprised people even believe goodness and religion go together."

Ok, I'll bite. What "evil' has been done in the name of the Christian religion in the last 500 years?